Please see http://members.cox.net/mhorowit/
for details. - Mike

"Michael Horowitz" > wrote in message
...
> Please see http://members.cox.net/mhorowit/
> for details. - Mike
>

Sorry that happened to you, Mike. I didn't know it was that bad.

Until a few years ago my T-Craft got propped mostly from the front. After
owning a Taylorcraft since the mid-80's, I guess it's been luck keeping the
ol' bird out of trouble.

A few years ago a west-coast seaplaner in our T-Craft club sold $5
FAA-approved videos on how to hand-prop from behind the prop--- on the right
side of the aircraft --- so that you could be at the controls, or at least
have ready access to them.. That's the best way to do it to keep the
aircraft from running off all by itself or flying away like a drone. FAA
rules require a person of suitable age and discretion to be at the controls
when the aircraft is hand-propped.

Yeah, I know. I'm being an ass lecturing on how to hand-prop while you're
going through the grieving process. Apology.

jls wrote:

FAA
> rules require a person of suitable age and discretion to be at the
controls
> when the aircraft is hand-propped.


Good advice, but how is that accomplished these days when the airports
are SO dead that there's beans and corn growing in the terminal building
in the layer of dust on the counter and you're out there by yourself
(like I am 99.5% of the time at my airport) ;) ???

The best way to avoid runaways is to simply use a rope between the
tailspring and a hangar post or fence post or airport tie-down ring.

Sad to see this sort of thing happen :(

One thing I ALWAYS do before flipping my prop is to VISUALLY look at the
throttle control arm on the carb to be SURE it's at idle.

Very sorry to hear of the loss!!!

Scott "never owned a plane with an electric starter" Littfin
Corben Junior Ace



>

"Scott" > wrote in message
...
> jls wrote:
>
> FAA
> > rules require a person of suitable age and discretion to be at the
> controls
> > when the aircraft is hand-propped.
>
>
> Good advice, but how is that accomplished these days when the airports
> are SO dead that there's beans and corn growing in the terminal building
> in the layer of dust on the counter and you're out there by yourself
> (like I am 99.5% of the time at my airport) ;) ???
>
> The best way to avoid runaways is to simply use a rope between the
> tailspring and a hangar post or fence post or airport tie-down ring.

Yeah, that's safe and legal too. Forrest Barber's T-Craft club even shows
you how to use a snap-shackle when you want to release the rope on the
tailspring -- from the cockpit. And some people install a glider tow. It
may be expensive but a better idea when you consider the consequences of
losing one.

That five-dollar video had a clip of a Cessna 120 getting loose with a
non-pilot girlfriend inside and the engine revved up wide open. An FAA
agent with a video camera just happened to be on the airport when the event
occurred. For a while the aircraft dragged the pilot, who hung on a strut,
in a circle until the ramp had removed some of his shoes, pants and skin.
According to the narrator, the passenger put her foot on one brake pedal,
thinking it controlled both wheels. After a while the wildly careening
aircraft finally dumped the pilot and roared off and slammed into another
airplane and a hangar, iirc. Somebody borrowed that tape and never returned
it. It was like a 3200--- coveted.

I wonder if that gal was ever persuaded to take another airplane ride.

That's a great tape. It even shows some limber-legged guy propping an
Ercoupe with his foot. And one of the narrators is a lady --- a real
looker.

On Wed, 24 Aug 2005 12:56:31 +0000, Scott > wrote:

> jls wrote:
>
> FAA
> > rules require a person of suitable age and discretion to be at the
> > controls when the aircraft is hand-propped.
>
>Good advice, but how is that accomplished these days when the airports
>are SO dead that there's beans and corn growing in the terminal building
>in the layer of dust on the counter and you're out there by yourself
>(like I am 99.5% of the time at my airport) ;) ???
>
>The best way to avoid runaways is to simply use a rope between the
>tailspring and a hangar post or fence post or airport tie-down ring.

Or a remote-release hook, either those made for towing gliders ($$$$) or a
homemade one. One guy on this page had a pretty slick setup...the hook was
released by pressing the left rudder pedal all the way. See the last picture
on:

http://www.bowersflybaby.com/tech/tailhook.html

In my ~7 years of flying the original Fly Baby, there was only twice that I was
unable to find a tiedown rope or an anchor point for my own rope. Once was on a
grass strip in the middle of nowhere, the second time is when the engine quietly
went to sleep on final approach on a 15-degree day.

Ron Wanttaja

Ron Wanttaja wrote:

>
> Or a remote-release hook, either those made for towing gliders ($$$$) or a
> homemade one. One guy on this page had a pretty slick setup...the hook was
> released by pressing the left rudder pedal all the way. See the last picture
> on:
>
> http://www.bowersflybaby.com/tech/tailhook.html
>
> In my ~7 years of flying the original Fly Baby, there was only twice that I was
> unable to find a tiedown rope or an anchor point for my own rope. Once was on a
> grass strip in the middle of nowhere, the second time is when the engine quietly
> went to sleep on final approach on a 15-degree day.
>
> Ron Wanttaja

I like it :) Why did he go for the foot release as opposed to a hand
release?

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

On Wed, 24 Aug 2005 09:33:50 -0500, "Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired"
> wrote:

>Ron Wanttaja wrote:
>
>>
>> Or a remote-release hook, either those made for towing gliders ($$$$) or a
>> homemade one. One guy on this page had a pretty slick setup...the hook was
>> released by pressing the left rudder pedal all the way.
>
> I like it :) Why did he go for the foot release as opposed to a hand
>release?

He would have had to run a new cable all the way back from the cockpit to the
tailwheel for a hand release. His setup attached the release link for the
tailhook to the same horn that steered the tailwheel, hence the regular rudder
cable did the duty.

The only possible drawback might be to foul the rudder control, but the release
chain for the tailhook (the small chain with a yellow plastic crimp sleeve) had
a quick-disconnect feature that made it pop off when the tension rose past that
needed to release the hook

http://www.bowersflybaby.com/tech/mike'shook3.JPG

Ron Wanttaja

I thought only Harley's got "kick-started" ;)

Scott




> That's a great tape. It even shows some limber-legged guy propping an
> Ercoupe with his foot. And one of the narrators is a lady --- a real
> looker.
>
>

Urban myth. There is no FAR which sez anything like 'a competent person
at the controls'. There are other sources, and itis a good idea, but
no 'rule'. Believe me, when I was preparing for my visit with the FSDO
I did the research. IMHO the absolutely best thing to do (which I did
not) is to TIE IT DOWN!!!! which I will never forget again, believe me
.. FYI, the Examiner and I believe the cause of the memory lapse was
that coming off an emotional experience (a very successful XC, about
which I was very excited), I let my attention wander. - Mike

It would be a bit difficult proping a seaplane from the front, so I
guess it's not a bad idea to stand behind the prop on the float;
however, for a land plane, (unless you do something bizarre like I did)
proping from the front is safe (if you are taught how to be out of the
way when the engine catches). - Mike

"mhorowit" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Urban myth. There is no FAR which sez anything like 'a competent person
> at the controls'. There are other sources, and itis a good idea, but
> no 'rule'. Believe me, when I was preparing for my visit with the FSDO
> I did the research. IMHO the absolutely best thing to do (which I did
> not) is to TIE IT DOWN!!!! which I will never forget again, believe me
> . FYI, the Examiner and I believe the cause of the memory lapse was
> that coming off an emotional experience (a very successful XC, about
> which I was very excited), I let my attention wander. - Mike
>

Uh, Michael, it is both written and spoken within the radius of our FSDO
here and others. I didn't say it was an FAR. Of course the general rule
about keeping an aircraft under control is more general, but hand-propping
outside of FSDO guidelines is considered the basis for violation, especially
if a catastrophe occurs.

That said, I am glad to know no such rule exists in the jurisdiction or
vicinity of your airport.

"mhorowit" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> It would be a bit difficult proping a seaplane from the front, so I
> guess it's not a bad idea to stand behind the prop on the float;
> however, for a land plane, (unless you do something bizarre like I did)

Like whut? Curious minds want to know.



> proping from the front is safe (if you are taught how to be out of the
> way when the engine catches). - Mike
>

I'll prop from the front if propping from behind is inconvenient, and the
aircraft has a suitable person at the controls, or is tied down.

Whoa! Am I understanding this correctly? Are you saying your local
FSDO office is making their own rules? I thought their job was to
enforce national rules directly from the FAA. How does that work??? If
I'm a transient pilot from my FSDO area to your FSDO area, how I am
supposed to know your FSDO rules? I must be reading something into what
you are writing that you really don't mean.

Now, of course, I realize there is a "catch all" in the FARs. Goes
something like operating in a safe manner. A FSDO office could
interpret that to mean by not tying down before propping is operating in
a dangerous or careless manner.

Scott


jls wrote:


>
> Uh, Michael, it is both written and spoken within the radius of our FSDO
> here and others. I didn't say it was an FAR. Of course the general rule
> about keeping an aircraft under control is more general, but hand-propping
> outside of FSDO guidelines is considered the basis for violation, especially
> if a catastrophe occurs.
>
> That said, I am glad to know no such rule exists in the jurisdiction or
> vicinity of your airport.
>
>

I PERSONALLY have never felt I would be comfortable propping a landplane
from the rear. To much stuff in the way...wing struts, landing gear,
etc. I don't think I would be comfortable turning my back on a spinning
prop while only one or two feet away...I want to see that spinning club
so I know exactly how far away it is. I'd hate to trip over a tire and
fall forward or throw out an arm to help regain my balance...

Scott


jls wrote:

> "mhorowit" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
>
>>It would be a bit difficult proping a seaplane from the front, so I
>>guess it's not a bad idea to stand behind the prop on the float;
>>however, for a land plane, (unless you do something bizarre like I did)
>
>
> Like whut? Curious minds want to know.
>
>
>
>
>>proping from the front is safe (if you are taught how to be out of the
>>way when the engine catches). - Mike
>>
>
>
> I'll prop from the front if propping from behind is inconvenient, and the
> aircraft has a suitable person at the controls, or is tied down.
>
>

Silly you, Scott! All FSDO's are fiefdoms! Just like US Customs
districts. The rules between any two are never the same. And they change
them anytime they want, just because!

Scott wrote:
> Whoa! Am I understanding this correctly? Are you saying your local
> FSDO office is making their own rules? I thought their job was to
> enforce national rules directly from the FAA. How does that work??? If
> I'm a transient pilot from my FSDO area to your FSDO area, how I am
> supposed to know your FSDO rules? I must be reading something into what
> you are writing that you really don't mean.
> Now, of course, I realize there is a "catch all" in the FARs. Goes
> something like operating in a safe manner. A FSDO office could
> interpret that to mean by not tying down before propping is operating in
> a dangerous or careless manner.

"Scott" > wrote

>I'd hate to trip over a tire and
> fall forward or throw out an arm to help regain my balance...

What arm? <g>
--
Jim in NC

My "good" arm! ;) Advice along the lines of my work, "Don't look into
the end of a fiber-optic line with your last good eye."

Scott



Morgans wrote:

> "Scott" > wrote
>
>
>>I'd hate to trip over a tire and
>>fall forward or throw out an arm to help regain my balance...
>
>
> What arm? <g>